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Israel Desperately Tries To Regain Public Sympathy

Foreign Affairs News Keywords: JERUSALEM
Posted on 10/16/2000 10:05:18 PDT by Arky

The horrifying 45 minute ordeal of the Arab boy slain by Israeli gunfire was documented on film by a French TV camerman and broadcast to a stunned worldwide audience. It was the worst public relations disaster for Jews in recorded history and abruptly ended Israel's 53 year "special case" status.

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Outraged Palestinians seeking vengeance soon struck back, seizing and brutally killing 2 Israeli soldiers. Desperate to try to regain public sympathy, Israel's government swiftly labeled their deaths as "a lynching" and has been widely circulating the following picture since then:

The Los Angeles Times today reviews the now rapidly escalating battle for favorable publicity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday, October 16, 2000 - Los Angeles Times
Images Are Ammunition in Battle for World's Sympathy

Media: Israelis and Palestinians load cameras, activate beepers and dial cell phones to spread their versions of recent events.
By Marjorie Miller, Times Staff Writer

JERUSALEM--"Press wishing to receive footage of Palestinian propaganda, please call," says the message from an Israeli propaganda arm.

"As part of the Al Aqsa intifada activities, Palestinians will march in Ramallah at 1 p.m. Thank you," says the message from a Palestinian counterpart.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, a thousand pictures just might win the war. That is the calculation of Israeli and Palestinian officials who are doing battle on beepers, mobile telephones, the Internet and television cameras while their forces face off in the streets.

Both sides want to mobilize their compatriots, to rally national support for their leaders and to sway international public opinion their way. Neither wants to be blamed for the violence that has claimed about 100 lives, most of them Palestinian. Each wants to make the point that it is the victim of the other's wrath.

Every photograph--and, indeed, every word--is a weapon in the media war.

That is why Palestinian officials confiscated journalists' film of a West Bank mob lynching two Israeli soldiers last week. They failed to get all of it, and images of a battered body tossed from a window, and of a Palestinian waving bloodied hands in triumph, were beamed across the world.

Until then, the most searing image of the conflict was the on-camera death of a terrified 12-year-old Palestinian boy who cowered behind his father during a firefight before he was killed by an Israeli soldier's bullet.

"The media war is not only coverage of the real war, maybe the real war is the media war," said Israeli government spokesman Nachman Shai.

That is why the Israel Defense Forces are arming their soldiers with video cameras as well as guns.

They feel that too many news programs are airing footage from the Palestinian viewpoint rather than from the Israeli soldiers' angle. They want to show that the bullets fly both ways. Israel Television has run the soldiers' videotape, showing Palestinians shooting at them.

During retaliatory raids for the lynching, Israeli gunships targeted the Voice of Palestine radio transmitters in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Israel accuses the Palestinians of using the radio to incite rioters with anti-Israeli tirades, and a halt to such broadcasts is one of their demands for negotiating a cease-fire at the summit in the Egyptian resort of Sharm el Sheik today.

Since the beginning of the clashes Sept. 28, Palestinian radio has broadcast nationalistic songs and continuous news of the street fights. For a while, the radio waves were open for listeners to vent their rage at Israelis, although not to criticize Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat.

The theme running through the broadcasts is how Israel took the land of Palestine and turned its people into refugees. When the clashes were at their peak, calls went out for the people to defend their country and to prepare themselves to fight for Palestine.

The missile attack took the channel off the air for about 30 minutes, but transmission resumed through local FM stations. Still, Voice of Palestine's audience is greatly reduced and the damages ran to $3 million, according to Director General Bassem abu Sumaya.

Israeli Radio director Amnon Nadav, meanwhile, instructed his program editors not to give a greater platform to the Arab perspective than to the Israeli position in news reports.

"This is Israel Radio and not the Voice of Palestine," Nadav was quoted as saying in the daily newspaper Maariv. He complained that Israelis interviewed on the radio sounded "apologetic and abject" compared with the Arabs.

Israeli media enjoy far more freedom than Palestinian newspapers and broadcasting outlets, particularly regarding internal politics. Unlike the Palestinian press, Israeli columnists and newspapers routinely criticize the government and, in normal times, cover the Palestinians' position.

But the Israeli media have closed ranks behind their government at a time when the country feels under siege from Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. There is little disagreement among leftist and rightist columnists and newspaper editorials.

After the lynchings last week, several Israeli commentators referred to the Palestinians as "barbarians" and "animals."

Most Israeli journalists say this consensus is a reflection of public opinion, not a manipulation of it. Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi says the effect is the same.

"The Israeli media as a whole has adopted the official version and increased the sense of hostility and distrust of the Palestinian people," Ashrawi said. "They have accepted the dehumanization of Palestinians."

One of the Palestinians' most articulate international representatives, Ashrawi was furious because an Israeli closure of West Bank cities prevented her from making it to Jerusalem on Sunday for an interview with CBS-TV anchor Dan Rather.

For the Palestinians, international public opinion is part of a negotiating strategy. Arafat has lost confidence in President Clinton as an impartial mediator and wants to bring more sympathetic allies in the United Nations and European Union into peace talks--a move Israel vehemently opposes.

Arafat also wants the Arab and Muslim worlds to rally behind him in the struggle for an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. Thus, the Palestinian media have dubbed the clashes the Al Aqsa intifada, or the uprising for the holy Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.

For Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the goal is to avoid being seen as the bully in an unequal fight.

Israel has the heavy weapons and well-trained army and, even if provoked, risks looking as if it is beating up on a weakling.

In this case, Israel responded to the riots with considerable might and paid a heavy price in international public opinion.

The U.N. Security Council condemned Israel for having used "excessive force."

The Israeli government quickly realized it had image problems. It has since opened a special media center and brought in the soft-spoken and bespectacled Shai to represent the country.

Shai was also Israel's spokesman during the 1991 Persian Gulf War against Iraq.

"The Gulf War was a completely different situation. We were attacked by Iraq and immediately enjoyed sympathy from the whole world. We were expected not to hit back, and we didn't," Shai said.

"This is different. It is Israelis versus Palestinians, and it was seen as an armed people against a child. The goal is to bring Israel back to where it was--[seen] as a peace-loving country," he said.

So urgent is the battle that Shai agreed for the first time to appear on television on the holiest Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement when Jews fast. Since then, he has been holding daily news briefings and has "mobilized" envoys to Europe and the United States, and to foreign media, with daily "talking points" to get the Israeli viewpoint across.

Shai thinks that, after stumbling in the first days of the conflict, Israel is gaining ground in the media war.

"In the first stage, we were not prepared," he said. "Once words replace shooting and fire, we will win."

1 Posted on 10/16/2000 10:05:18 PDT by Arky
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Who Killed The Terrified Palestinian Boy? Was It A Palestinian/France2TV Propaganda Plot?

Foreign Affairs Miscellaneous Keywords: ISRAEL/IDF/PALESTINE/FRANCE2TV
Posted on 11/01/2000 16:31:56 PST by Arky

The battle for favorable public opinion is an essential part of warfare. The centerpiece of it in the present combat between the Mideast tribal enemies is the 45 minute ordeal of the terrified 12 year old Palestinian boy, ended only when he was killed by gunfire, his father gravely wounded and an ambulance attendant attempting to aid them was also shot dead and the ambulance driver wounded on 30 September 2000.

A France2 TV camerman"s video tape of the horrifying event was broadcast worldwide.

From that moment on, Israel was in a disastrous worldwide public relations nightmare - and frantic efforts at damage control immediately commenced.

Monday, October 2, 2000 Los Angeles Times
Father-Son Image Shocks, Sickens Both Sides
By Tracy Wilkinson, Times Staff Writer

JERUSALEM--It was the kind of searing image that often defines the senselessness of hateful conflict.

A young boy is caught on camera, cowering under a storm of bullets, his father desperately attempting to shield him. The boy screams in panic. Then he lies still, dead, his hand curled around his face. His father slumps above him, head rolling, wounded.

The images, captured by a Palestinian television cameraman for a foreign news agency, were broadcast repeatedly on Palestinian and Israeli TV and transmitted the world over. Here, Palestinians and Israelis alike were shocked and sickened.

In the blink of a camera frame, the death of Rami Durra, a 12-year-old from a Gaza Strip refugee camp, became part of the battle for world opinion, even as the battle in the streets of the West Bank and Gaza raged for a fourth day Sunday and claimed more lives.

In addition to Rami and his father, an ambulance driver who attempted to save them was also shot dead. Palestinians blamed the Israelis for what they saw as excessive, brutal force; some Israelis blamed the Palestinians for the "cynical" use of children in violent demonstrations to begin with.

An Israeli military commander said the shooting was under investigation and that it was not yet clear whose bullets felled the boy, who was buried early Sunday without an autopsy, in the Palestinian tradition.

"First of all, I am very, very sorry from the depth of my heart," Maj. Gen. Yom-tov Samia, head of military forces in the southern region that includes Gaza, told Israeli radio. But, he added, he was sure Rami and his father, Jamal, "were there not just by accident."

He said the pair were part of a crowd throwing rocks and firebombs and, as such, were at risk. The Israeli army post had come under gunfire from four or five Palestinian positions for two hours, Samia said. One position, he said, was about 20 yards from where the father and son huddled against a wall.

From a hospital bed in Gaza City where he lay critically wounded with eight bullet holes in his body, Jamal Durra gave a different account.

He said he and his boy stumbled into the firefight on their way home from a used-car lot and had nowhere else to go. They were pinned down for 45 minutes, he said, during which time he could clearly see the man--an Israeli soldier--firing directly at them.

"I tried to hide myself, I tried to hide my son, but the shooting was everywhere," Durra said, sobbing. "I could not save my son."

In an effort at damage control, numerous officials of the Israeli government were assigned to telephone foreign journalists and explain Israel's position--that its soldiers fire only when fired upon--and to heap blame on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

Palestinian officials accused Israel of committing war crimes against their people and began broadcasting radio messages in Hebrew, directed at Israelis.

"Soldiers, stop and think," the spots on Voice of Palestine radio say. "What can you say to your children, when you are killing children their age?"

BBC 2 October 2000
"Israeli officials have questioned whether the boy was killed by Israeli bullets and said he could have been hit by stray Palestinian gunfire.

But witnesses say the Palestinian youths were armed only with stones, not guns, and the shooting was all from the Israeli side."

The initial Israeli stance was that armed Palestinians were shooting at the IDF stronghold at Netzarim Junction from 7 locations on 3 sides of the IDF location and that one of those 7 Palestinian firing locations was the position that put the boy in the crossfire, as dramatized in the following aerial photo with graphics added.

However, after conducting their investigation the Chief of Operations of the Israeli army backed away from that initial stance.

October 3, 2000 CNN 12:35 PM EDT (1635 GMT) Associated Press
"The Israeli army said the boy had apparently been killed by Israeli fire."

"This was a grave incident, an event we are all sorry about," Israeli army chief of operations, Giora Eiland, told Israel radio Tuesday. "We conducted an investigation ... and as far as we understand, the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers."

Clearly intending to counter-balance that disclosure, Israelis then unleashed a massive global propaganda effort to demonize and point the finger of blame at the parents of the rock throwing Palestinian children killed by IDF gunfire.

Which only worsened the worldwide public relations disaster for Israel.

Then, on Oct. 31, 2000 - a month and a day after the video taped shooting death of the terrified Palestinian boy left Israel almost completely friendless among the nations of the world - and four weeks after the disclosure from the Israeli army Chief of Operations of their investigation findings, another stance reversal was reported by this Israeli news source.

"The boy was not shot by Israeli soldiers - but was rather the victim of a cruel plot staged by Palestinian sharp-shooters and a television cameraman.

Oct. 31, 2000 - 2 Cheshvan 5761
PALESTINIANS, NOT ISRAELIS, KILLED THE 12-YEAR-OLD BOY

An IDF investigation and re-enactment appears to show conclusively that the 12-year-old boy from Gaza, Muhammad al-Dura, was not shot by Israeli soldiers - but was rather the victim of a cruel plot staged by Palestinian sharp-shooters and a television cameraman.

The incident in question occurred on Oct. 6, when the boy and his father happened to be walking past the scene of a major battle between Palestinian snipers and Israeli soldiers. Former IDF sniper Yosef Doriel, who initiated the re-enactment, said that he had several reasons to suspect that it was not the Israelis who shot the boy. "For one thing, the boy and his father were hiding behind and to the left of a barrel that was between them and the Israeli forces," he told Arutz-7 today. "In the video clip, you see four clean bullet holes to the side of them. These were not shot by the Israelis - they are 'clean' and full holes, not mere grazes that would have been formed by the 30-degree angle of the Israelis - but rather by Palestinians (stationed more directly in front of the father and son) to make sure that the two would stay put. Suddenly, you see the boy lying down in his father's lap, with another bullet hole in the wall directly behind him - again, it could not have come from the IDF position, which was behind the barrel and to the side, but only from the Palestinian position, which was more directly in front of the father and son. This is the bullet that went through his stomach and out of his back. At that point in the video, you can hear the firing - but the Israeli position was far away! Rather, what happened was that a Palestinian advanced to a spot very close to the photographer, and shot the fatal shot. You can also notice that at that moment of the fatal shots, the photographer suddenly 'shook' and the picture was blurred - a signal that the shots came from close to him."

Doriel and a fellow physicist, Nachum Shachaf, proposed that O.C. Southern Command Yom Tov Samiyeh oversee a re-enactment of the entire incident, complete with the barrel and life-size dummies. Doriel concludes: "The Palestinian forces staged the event. The Israelis were firing, for sure - but the fatal shots came not from them, but from the Palestinian position in front of the boy, behind the cameraman."

It's obvious that Israel cannot expect to reverse the public relations disaster that began with the worldwide broadcast of the video taped shooting death of the boy without presenting clear and convincing evidence to support that scenario. Some of the more readily apparent questions raised by the article include the following:

1. What was the nature and extent of the investigation initially conducted by Israel?

2. What is the position of France2 TV about the present allegations? Have they been notified of the present allegations by Israel?

3. Has anybody documented witness interviews, such as with tape recorders or video tape and, if so, will the complete transcripts be made available to the press and world public at this time?

4. Has the most recent Israeli investigation and re-enactment been documented on video tape and, if so, will complete copies of the video tape be made available to the press and world public at this time?

It would be helpful if interested readers aware of other news articles pertaining to the foregoing would post them here.

1 Posted on 11/01/2000 16:31:56 PST by Arky
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Downside Legacy Research: the death of 12 yr old Muhammed al-Dura

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a00415d1778.htm

Lots of good information here. I would check this out before deciding.

2 Posted on 11/01/2000 16:51:18 PST by golitely
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I recieved a forwarded email from a person in contact with our church. The eyewitness was in this area when it happened, and said that the media had it all wrong. The Palestinians shot the boy, not the Israelies. I am searching for this email, and can post it if anyone is interested.

3 Posted on 11/01/2000 16:54:04 PST by AlaskaVet (d_bonson@hotmail.com)
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Check Alamo Girl's Downside Legacy (DSL) in the Featured Links. She was working on this this morning.

4 Posted on 11/01/2000 16:55:53 PST by Mind-numbed Robot
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I do hope you will post it, also check the url I listed above--sorry my html is so inadequate, when I try to make links, it seems to fail. At any rate Alamo Girl, Trident Delta and others are weighing in on this, and the concensus (not 100% I should add) is for what you say.

5 Posted on 11/01/2000 16:56:52 PST by golitely
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You gave me a flag on this but I really am not interested in the foreign policy of Israel or the Palestinians.

The battle in the Holy Land has been going on for maybe 4000 years. Both sides claim the same God, gave them the same mandate, for the same land. The battle to the death continues. Maybe both sides could kneel down (stand or lay down) at this site and pray to the same God for an answer. Otherwise, it will continue. When both sides are ready for peace it will end. Maybe in another thousand years.

Meanwhile the USA foreign policy should be no foreign entanglements which involve us in war situtations.

6 Posted on 11/01/2000 17:00:38 PST by ex-snook
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Bump. This was a despicable act.

7 Posted on 11/01/2000 17:00:41 PST by Egg
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I can't say I'm surprised. Anyone who would pay a father $300 for each 12 yr. old they send into the street, is a barbarian. They receive $4000 if there's a death. And there is proof of this.

8 Posted on 11/01/2000 17:07:58 PST by brat
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I can't say I'm surprised. Anyone who would pay a father $300 for each 12 yr. old they send into the street, is a barbarian. They receive $4000 if there's a death. And there is proof of this.

I heard that and can't remember where. Did you read it from another thread? I would like a source if you have one.

9 Posted on 11/01/2000 17:11:14 PST by Jackie222
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IsraelWire 10/11/00 “…….The IDF battalion commander in Hebron, Colonel Tivon, told the media that the PLO Authority (PA) and Arab leaders in Hebron are circulating fliers telling the local populace that payment would be made for persons willing to send their youth out into the streets to attack IDF forces and Israeli civilians. The fliers offer $300 for children who throw rocks at Israeli forces and families whose children are killed in the warfare would be paid $2,000. Despite showing the Arabic language fliers on television, PA spokesperson Dr. Hanan Ashrawi told CNN that the reports were untrue and part of the "Israeli media spin machine spreading racist propaganda." ……..”

10 Posted on 11/01/2000 19:54:29 PST by Alamo-Girl
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One more:

A.P. 10/9/00 Karin Laub “……As clashes have raged for 12 days in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinians injured in clashes with Israeli troops have received $300 each from the Palestinian Authority and families of those killed have been paid $2,000. …… Israel accuses Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat of using money to lure more rioters into the streets. The Palestinian Authority scoffs at the suggestion, saying that like any other government, including that of Israel, it is simply trying to ease the suffering of those injured or killed defending their homeland. ……The argument is part of the overall debate over whether the riots are a spontaneous outburst of Palestinian anger or are orchestrated to some degree by Arafat to extract concessions from ……”

11 Posted on 11/01/2000 19:55:41 PST by Alamo-Girl
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thanks.......

12 Posted on 11/01/2000 20:07:08 PST by Jackie222
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You're quite welcome, of course!!!

13 Posted on 11/01/2000 20:12:25 PST by Alamo-Girl
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I have.

The "re-enactment" news story continues to be the only one I've come across thus far. If others are found, hopefully they'll be posted. But the lack of a blitz of ballyhoo worldwide about the alleged re-enactment by the Israelis raises a "trial balloon" possibility.

The Israel propaganda wing here doesn't seem to realize the huge question marks and giant explosive issues raised by the article. For starters, if it's so glaringly obvious from photos that have been on the internet from the outset that the holes in the wall conclusively pin down the direction of the bullets, why would such a LATE DATE "re-enactment" have even been conducted?

What bearing does the late date have on it? Israel knew with absolute certainty at the outset that they had a worldwide PR disaster to try to cope with, making it highly unlikely that the initial Israeli investigation would be slipshod and cavalier. The sequence of events that followed is reviewed here - including the 3 October 2000 Associated Press report with the following:

"The Israeli army said the boy had apparently been killed by Israeli fire."

"This was a grave incident, an event we are all sorry about," Israeli army chief of operations, Giora Eiland, told Israel radio Tuesday.

"We conducted an investigation ... and as far as we understand, the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers."

It's only common sense that Eiland was not being reckless and cavalier when making those comments and that he was not relying on supposition or guesswork - or a careless/inept investigation by his subordinates who had obviously completed that investigation when he made those comments.

The bullet holes in the wall were there. The IDF aerial photo/graphic had already been released with the original "crossfire" story which included the originally alleged Palestinian firing location on the opposite side of the boy and his father from the IDF location. Yet, Eiland dumped the original crossfire "explanation" - with finality, as demonstrated by the "re-enactment" story published nearly a month later.

Why unless his investigation determined that the "crossfire" story would not hold up under close scrutiny?

What makes the "re-inactment" story so explosive is that what it alleges is a clear and obvious War Crime. And not just a run-of-the-mill War Crime but a heinous War Crime that involves the press - France2TV

When the "re-enactment" story was published, it effectively left Israel with only 2 options. Either promptly produce clear and convincing evidence to support that story - or promptly repudiate it.

In short, it's put-up or shut-up time for Israel regarding the shooting death of the terrified boy.

14 Posted on 11/01/2000 21:54:59 PST by Arky
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Both sides claim the same God

BINGO!... NOT!

:)That is exactly the problem, Both sides claim a different GOD! One God says "Thou shalt not murder" the other says "I will give the infidels torture at your hands" and teaches that all who will not bow to him must be killed or become slaves. Not the same God. Infact sounds like the old God vs Satan thing to me...

15 Posted on 11/01/2000 22:34:54 PST by American in Israel
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No question about it. It was a suicide.

16 Posted on 11/01/2000 22:40:48 PST by The Cruiser
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At that point in the video, you can hear the firing - but the Israeli position was far away! Rather, what happened was that a Palestinian advanced to a spot very close to the photographer, and shot the fatal shot. You can also notice that at that moment of the fatal shots, the photographer suddenly 'shook' and the picture was blurred - a signal that the shots came from close to him."

Hard to argue with that. Notice in the pictures above that the middle two pictures were cropped deliberately to hide the row of bullet holes behind the child. When the pictures were first releases they were all the same size and a vertical row of four or five bullet holes appeared in the second frame. Now on this re-release the picture on the video sequence has been enlarged, very effectivly removing the first row of bullet holds. On the third frame the second row of bullet holes show up, much closer to the child. This time they actualy had to shorten the picture to try to crop out the holes! In this frame the dad gets a clue and looks at the source of the bullets and the firing, right by the camara man. Pretty callous people, a snuff flick made to order. Wonder what they paid the camara man? Thirty pieces of silver?

17 Posted on 11/01/2000 22:47:07 PST by American in Israel
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See #14 and provide us with your analysis of the events reviewed therein.

18 Posted on 11/01/2000 22:52:46 PST by Arky
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"The Israeli army said the boy had apparently been killed by Israeli fire."

"This was a grave incident, an event we are all sorry about," Israeli army chief of operations, Giora Eiland, told Israel radio Tuesday.

"We conducted an investigation ... and as far as we understand, the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers."

The statements were made within 8 hours of the release of the pictures to the press, hardly enough time to hold real investigation seeing that the area is a bit to hot with flying lead to go investigate in. It takes time to do police work and re-enactments. Now if it had been our government within minutes, Vice prez Bore would have been able to say "We didnt do it, I was there and in fact I invented the camara that took the pictures!

19 Posted on 11/01/2000 23:05:27 PST by American in Israel
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Both sides claim the same God

BINGO ... NOT!

Dear American in Israel,
I'm not a Muslim and I've read the Quoran only once so I don't recognise the bloodthirsty verse you quote to condemn your fellow semites as gore-swilling wretches bent on rapine and murder.

But I have read Joshua 8:24 , 25, 28, which says in part: "When Israel finished killing all the inhabitants of Ai in the open ground ... and when all men had fallen to the edge of the sword ... all Israel returned to Ai and slaughtered all its people. The number of those that fell that day was 12,000. Then Joshua burned Ai, making it a ruin for ever more, a desolate place even to this day."

I can give you plenty of other referenes to Yahweh's instructions to your ancestors re. the correct methods for dealing with people who get in their way. You might try Deuteronomy 7: 1-6. for example. And Exodus 23:23, 33 is particularly instructive, especially the bit where God says He has a neat solution to the Canaanite problem: "I shall exterminate these (Canaanites), they shall not live in your country.'' I guess we're all lucky the IDF didn't think He was talking about that nice little town in Connecticut.

As you no doubt know, Joshua was leading the Israelites back to the Land of Milk and Honey after their spell of pyramid building, the 40 years in the desert, and Moses' subsequent death. It would seem to have a few parallels with today, don't you think?

Joshua found strangers in the land his people had vacated quite some time earlier. But, luckily for him, the Almighty endorsed a spot of ethnic cleansing, so it was O.K. to deal severely with the locals. This time He must have had a quiet word with Arik Sharon.

In those days, of course, Joshua didn't have the U.S. to pay for his swords, a complicit press to portray a slain 12-year-old as someone who committed suicide for $2000, or explosives to raze the homes of those evicted from their land under whichever Ottoman, british or Israeli law seems most convenient at the time.

I'd tread very carefully in accusing muslims of being instructed by their holy book to kill and murder, if I were you. Your own revered text features more self-righteous murdering than just about any book I can think of, except perhaps the "Song of Roland," which recounts how the God of Peace told the Christians to give the Spanish moslems a bit of what was good for them.

As I said, I'm just an agnostic who takes the trouble to check my facts before uttering blood libels against people who have as much right to be in that corner of the world as you do -- and maybe even a little bit more.

That kid the IDF killed was, after all, a Palestinian in Palestine, while you are, as your freeper handle denotes, "An American in Israel.''

20 Posted on 11/02/2000 00:16:20 PST by Big Bunyip
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Sorry, I am american-indian, not semite at all. And you have me on the heavy commands to wipe out some of the neighbors, I am not too bible studied either. There are a few cases in the Old Testament/Tanach when God says wipe these people out, if you dont they will be a thorn in your side forever. Sometimes it even talks about sending in the people God does not like to wipe out the Jews to punish them for not doing what God says. Obiviously God believes in spanking your kids. But the tennants remain the same, The Quran teaches to kill the infidel, to enslave the non moslems. The bible teaches to allow people to make choices on thier own, not at gunpoint. Quite a difference. But some times war is the only recourse. For instance, if the idea turn the other cheek is taken out of context, there would be no "good guys" left. Cops if shot would in rightiousness just take off their bullet proof vests and say shoot me here in the heart. But the concept is to forgive, to take insult instead of revenge. Not to surrender your life when anybody wants your wallet.

If I recall correctly a soldier asked Jesus "what do I do?" Ole JC said "be a good soldier", dont steal etc... Not throw down your sword and get a real job handing out welfare checks. The concept is that it is rightious to defend your family, homeland, life in the face of evil. Is their any doubt that what Arafat is doing sending children to throw rocks at soldiers is evil?

21 Posted on 11/02/2000 02:16:39 PST by American in Israel
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This payment system is not universally approved, even within Palestinian circles:

http://www.arabia.com/palestine/omayya/0,7080,504,00.html

22 Posted on 11/02/2000 07:27:07 PST by DonQ
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Dear American, Thank you for the civil reply. It's a pleasure to have an exchange on this subject without everything degenerating into abuse and messianic arrogance. And we do have common ground: Not handing out welfare checks!

My point, as I've made on other threads, is that peace will never come until democracy arrives, too. True democracy: one man, one vote. The idea that having 10 Arab Knesset members is somehow enough when there are three million Palestinians is tokenism taken to absurdity. It helped make one nation of the U.S. (despite that unpleasantness during the 1860s) and it might have a beneficial impact on Israel/ palestine.

Actually, I rather like the Swiss system of cantons, which gives ethnic enclaves of Italians, french and germans a local voice and unites them in a national legislature.

But I do know this: As someone who has been villified by more extreme muslim friends for defending Israel's right to exist, the jewish state simply cannot expect one third of the population to remain in bantustans and hope for peace. This is from someone with no ax to grind (other than a disinclination to keep pouring my tax dollars into an intractable mess), who realizes that 100 years of Jewish settlement, and 52 of official statehood, give Jews as much right to be there are as Palestinians.

But, when I see the news footage of dead kids (like the ones on the little league team I coach) and CNN reporters being shot (thank God he wasn't from Fox!), it makes my blood boil. That Israel, founded on such high principles and in the aftermath of so much tragedy, should act this way is a travesty of everything human and decent Jews have given to the world.

I'm not alone in thinking the Palestinians have to be reasonably accommodated. Since you're in israel, you'll probably find it pretty easy to grab some of the writings of Eleizer ben Yehuda. As you may know, he was a philologist and one of Herzl's later followers, who arrived during World War One (the little one!) and virtually wrote the rule book for modern Hebrew grammar (at least as I understand it).

What struck Yehuda most -- and gave him the most concern for the future of the state he hoped to help found -- was the deep attachment the palestinians he found there displayed toward their homeland. After, I think, 20 years and the bloody clashes of the late twenties, he left Israel and began urging the creation of a Jewish state somewhere else. If any other posters can further enlighten me on Yehuda, I'd appreciate it.

I don't think he was neccessarily right or wrong, but his experience is illustrative that an exclusively Jewish state was a tenuous proposition 85 years ago (even in the eyes of some of its ardent advocates) and remains even moreso today.

By the way, since you are an American Indian, you may well have Jewish roots. Don't the Mormons believe Native-Americans to be descendants of the lost tribe or somesuch?

Mazel tof -- and keep your head down until peace comes. You may be in a permanent crouch for some time to come.

23 Posted on 11/02/2000 07:42:11 PST by Big Bunyip
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Let me try again with a link to an Arab editorial cartoon condemning the money inducement for Arab parents to send their kids into harm's way ...

http://www.arabia.com/cartoon/getImage/0,5087,504,00.gif

By the way, does anyone know of any family actually being paid yet? I'd be very interested to know what kind of money was being used. Could it be the Palestinian funny money or US currency or something from an Arab country??

24 Posted on 11/02/2000 09:29:53 PST by DonQ
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Thank you so much for the url! I'll go check it out right away! Here's an article saying that money was paid:

A.P. 10/9/00 Karin Laub “……As clashes have raged for 12 days in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinians injured in clashes with Israeli troops have received $300 each from the Palestinian Authority and families of those killed have been paid $2,000. …… Israel accuses Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat of using money to lure more rioters into the streets. The Palestinian Authority scoffs at the suggestion, saying that like any other government, including that of Israel, it is simply trying to ease the suffering of those injured or killed defending their homeland. ……The argument is part of the overall debate over whether the riots are a spontaneous outburst of Palestinian anger or are orchestrated to some degree by Arafat to extract concessions from ……”

25 Posted on 11/02/2000 09:36:10 PST by Alamo-Girl
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Please read the HAMAS Charter:

This is a quote from it:

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."

26 Posted on 11/02/2000 09:38:28 PST by antinazi
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Thanks for posting the Israeli account of the incident.

It rings true to me. The Palestinians are even more coldly calculating than I thought.

27 Posted on 11/02/2000 09:42:04 PST by dennisw
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"The statements were made within 8 hours of the release of the pictures to the press, hardly enough time to hold real investigation seeing that the area is a bit to hot with flying lead to go investigate in. It takes time to do police work and re-enactments."

The killing was on 30 Sepember and Israel's PR disaster was immediate. The investigation shouldn't have required much time. On 2 October Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Yomtov Samia confirmed that the investigation was already in progress. "We are treating this incident very seriously and are investigating it thoroughly. We are examining the photo angles and the angles of fire to understand where it came from and from whom."

On 3 October Israeli army chief of operations, Giora Eiland, told Israel radio: "We conducted an investigation ... and as far as we understand, the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers." Note the past tense and keep in mind that General Samia had earlier outlined some of the investigation details and its grave importance.

The following news article was provided by aruanan

The Jerusalem Post
October 2, 2000, Monday
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 4
LENGTH: 253 words
HEADLINE: Boy's tragic death caught on camera
BYLINE: Arieh O'Sullivan

Some say Mohammed Jamal Aldura, a 12-year-old boy from the el-Bureij refugee camp, was participating in the stoning of the IDF outpost at Netzarim when his father came to drag him home before he got hurt.

Others say he was returning from a used car market with his father when they were caught in the crossfire between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen.

But there is no denying the tragic impact of his death, filmed by a French TV crew and broadcast around the world.

At one point Aldura and his father, Jamal, are seen crouching behind a few cement blocks, bullets richocheting above their heads, the boy crying out of fear. People are yelling at them to take better cover. The film jumps, possibly when the camerman took cover himself from a burst of gunfire.

Suddenly the child is shot dead and the father wounded and in a state of shock.

"They fired at us. My boy died in my arms," Jamal Aldura told reporters who interviewed him lying in his hospital bed.

Mohammed's mother watched the whole thing on television. The IDF expressed regret over the boy's death, but OC Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Yomtov Samia insisted that the boy was not killed by army gunfire.

"I have no doubt that the gunfire, as it appears in the television close-up, was not from IDF soldiers," Samia told Channel 2. "We are treating this incident very seriously and are investigating it thoroughly. We are examining the photo angles and the angles of fire to understand where it came from and from whom."

It's not likely that France2TV is going to take the "plot" accusations lightly and the worldwide press usually demonstrates its herd instinct when one of the herd is targeted.

28 Posted on 11/02/2000 10:10:40 PST by Arky
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Any clue on what nationality currency was used to pay them? It would indicate something of the PLO's financial resources.

29 Posted on 11/02/2000 12:29:11 PST by DonQ
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"Thanks for posting the Israeli account of the incident."

Which Israeli account? The initial "crossfire" story, the Israeli admission on 3 October that Israel had determined from its investigation that it was Israeli bullets that killed the boy, or the Israeli "re-enactment" news article a month later alleging a Palestinian/France2TV camerman plot to kill the boy while filming it and blame it on IDF soldiers for propaganda helpful to the Palestinians.

Which of those three different Israeli "explanations" are you referring to and why does that particular story seem more truthful to you than the other two?

30 Posted on 11/02/2000 12:30:14 PST by Arky
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The report only showed it in dollars so I don't know if that was the currency - or if they were giving an equivalent. I'm not sure what the press standard is for that kind of reporting...

31 Posted on 11/02/2000 12:42:48 PST by Alamo-Girl
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Just from looking at the photograph I doubt it was a deliberate killing of a child. Looking at the angle and distance from the Isreali stronghold and where the father and son were attempting to hide behind a drum, it would be difficult to distinquish that they were not shooters...particularly being under fire from multiple points, some of which coming from the same general direction as the two visible people behind the drum.

However, the answer as to who killed the child is far more difficult. Someone pulled the trigger on a gun, but it was many people, Isreali and Palestinian, with the assistance of others throughout the world, who killed that child and many others.

32 Posted on 11/02/2000 12:43:46 PST by CWOJackson
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In the Intifada of several years ago it was well known in the IDF that the PLO was paying each of the stone throwers to stage the event and giving the time and place of the event to cooperative media to make sure that TV cameras would be there to record it.

This information came to me from my son-in-law who was a captain in the army and whose father is one of the the highest ranking civil servants in the IDF. I have no reason to doubt its veracity.

Although there is more violence in the recent protests, the pattern is the same and again I have no doubt that the kids or their families are paid for their participation, and the TV media told when to show up.

So much for the spontaneous revolt of the Palestinians. The recent events are among the most hideous misuses of children in the history of the world, exceeded probably only by the Nazi's use of the Hitler Youth to fight the Russians and the Childrens' Crusade in the middle ages.

33 Posted on 11/02/2000 13:33:27 PST by Magician
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It is all so sad that the media has become part of war making efforts. We saw it in Kosovo. Worse, CNN was implicated in deaths related to the bombing of the TV station there. We see it in pictures of stone throwers being choreographed for the press. My last Jerusalem Post printed version had an entire section on the subject.

Truly, I believe Arafat had hopes of making the Palestinian struggle the new Kosovo complete with international involvement - and was planning on manipulating public opinion through the press to achieve that goal.

But the U.S. press is not controllable and he underestimated the public's lack of respect for conventional politically correct media sources. Moreover he underestimates the power of the new media, especially the internet.

34 Posted on 11/02/2000 13:56:16 PST by Alamo-Girl
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Arky. Why the heck are you getting angry at Israel? 

They gave a very good account that you are welcome to pick apart...if you can. The Palestinians are definitely capable of such a murderous manipulation. Israel tells the truth a lot more often than Yassir Arafat. 

How did you like the terror bombing today just as the ceasefire was to take place? Just shows how the Palies operate.

35 Posted on 11/02/2000 14:10:27 PST by dennisw
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Thanks and please keep your eyes open to see what sort of money the PLO is using to pay these people (could it be IOUs or PLO funny money?). Oddly enough the PLO has long been going around with a begging bowl, complaining that its poor Palestinians aren't getting shelter or enough food, but it's got the loot to promptly pay (a whole lot more promptly than the Swiss bankers) for people who are no longer productive.

I had twice tried to give a URL for an Arab political cartoon. I have been utterly unable to download or print it from my screen, owing to some formatting peculiarity. I hope that your superior technical skill (or at least some Freeper's superior skill) will be able to post the cartoon itself here and in a way that can be printed.

36 Posted on 11/02/2000 14:27:20 PST by DonQ
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I was able to pull up the cartoon of an Arab with money holding up a dead child as a shield against incoming bullets. Is that the one?

I'm not very good at pictures, but could give a heads up to someone who is...

37 Posted on 11/02/2000 14:38:57 PST by Alamo-Girl
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Yep that's the cartoon. I cannot print it from that site ... all I print is really confused stuff, so if someone could somehow patch it into this Freep thread (and especially in a condition that could be printed), I'd be gratified.

38 Posted on 11/03/2000 07:33:43 PST by DonQ
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DonQ would like to get this cartoon from arabia.com to show on the thread and I'm hoping one of you can give him a hand:

http://www.arabia.com/cartoon/getImage/0,5087,504,00.gif

39 Posted on 11/03/2000 07:49:20 PST by Alamo-Girl
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"They gave a very good account that you are welcome to pick apart...if you can."

Any objective observer can.

It's the killing of rock throwing children that has stripped Israel of friends among the nations of the world and disgusted the worldwide public. Mohammed Aldura wasn't even throwing rocks. The 45 minute ordeal of that terrified boy and his father, filmed by a France2TV camerman and broadcast to the world, was the worst public relations disaster for Jews in recorded history and abruptly ended the 53 year "special case" status of Israel.

Todate, Israel has offered three "explanations" starting with the "crossfire" story which was withdrawn three days later after an investigation supervised by high ranking Israeli military officials determined that it was untenable and that the boy had indeed been killed by IDF gunfire.

Then, a month later, a bizarre allegation surfaced in an Israeli news article that the Palestinian born France2TV camerman and Palestinian gunmen hatched a propaganda plot to shoot the boy to death while filming it and then blame it on the IDF, the truth being uncovered by a "re-enactment" and careful study of the bullet holes in the wall against which the boy and his father were cowering throughout their forty-five minutes of terror during which the father was gravely wounded by multiple gunshots, an ambulance attendant attempting to reach them to render aid was shot dead and the ambulance driver wounded.

Pro Israel propagandists immediately sprang into action here in FreeRepublic with a barrage of postings attempting to bolster that Israeli news story by including pictures they claimed to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was killed by Palestinian gunfire.

The pictures have been on the internet and here in FreeRepublic from the outset, making it self evident that the pro Israel propagandists themselves did not consider them to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was killed by Palestinian gunfire UNTIL the Israeli news source story surfaced over a month after the killing of the boy.

It's also self evident that the Israeli news source story is in conflict with the initial investigation a month earlier supervised by the high ranking military officials that ruled out the original "crossfire" story and determined that the boy was killed by Israeli bullets. Yet, that initial investigation was on-scene, reportedly thorough and included photographs of the bullet holes in the wall that were clearly not then considered by anyone to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was shot to death by Palestinian gunfire.

What it all boils down to is that because of its own self inflicted wounds, Israel has destroyed its public image, forfeit the blame game to the Palestinians and lost its c-r-e-d-i-b-i-l-i-t-y.

40 Posted on 11/03/2000 10:59:30 PST by Arky
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All ya have ta do is put one lil' ol' command in front of that address to display it here (img src=).

41 Posted on 11/03/2000 20:18:16 PST by TPartyType
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Thank you very much for showing us how to do pictures and providing a link to learn more! Hugs!!!

42 Posted on 11/03/2000 20:58:51 PST by Alamo-Girl
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I am your humble servant.

Check out my latest post on the Newcomers thread. (I'm kinda proud of it!)

BTW, that picture makes we want to wretch.

43 Posted on 11/03/2000 21:22:00 PST by TPartyType
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Maybe they should stop throwing stones? Most people stop after they get their ass kicked every time. But not that bunch.

44 Posted on 11/03/2000 21:27:28 PST by Bill Rice
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I saw your post on the Newcomer thread! It is absolutely wonderful and I love the picture!!! Kudos!!!

The cartoon was a heart breaker to me also and I was concerned it would outrage some on the Palestinian side, but the source was arabia.com so maybe it has a message that I didn't understand.

45 Posted on 11/03/2000 21:33:34 PST by Alamo-Girl
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You're always one step ahead of me! Heck; you're always one step ahead of everybody!!!

Hugs.

46 Posted on 11/03/2000 21:36:13 PST by TPartyType
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HAHAHAHAHA! You're toooo kind to me! Hugs!!!

47 Posted on 11/03/2000 21:42:37 PST by Alamo-Girl
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France2 had a Palestinian photographer that they used! You think we're stupid here?

48 Posted on 11/04/2000 00:04:54 PST by brat
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Benjamin Netanyahu talked about it on CBN. They taped the TV and radio shows before the Israeli's blew up the stations in retaliation for the men killed at the jail.

49 Posted on 11/04/2000 00:07:30 PST by brat
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"France2 had a Palestinian photographer that they used! You think we're stupid here?"

Read about it in the article below and note who posted it.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a0264b25137.htm

50 Posted on 11/04/2000 00:28:15 PST by Arky
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I wonder how many news reporters are checking with FR each day to save them precious time? I read about the DUI on FR a day ahead of the news. (Its insane how important the UI is compared to gores dealings with Russia)

After Bush wins next week the media will have to install new software to be able to boot up....HA!

51 Posted on 11/04/2000 05:10:41 PST by Jackie222
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On PA finances, from published reports I have gleaned that the U.S. provides somewhere between $500 million and $1 billion a year to the PA. Britain supplies around $150 million a year. They also get direct financial aid from Saudi Arabia and the other states in the Persian Gulf (Kuwait, etc). I haven't seen exact figures on those, but just from coverage and the importance it apparently had, I'd guess around the same level as Britain's aid. To estimate the importance of those levels of aid, there are 2 million people in the PA territories (also another ~1.6 million Israeli Arabs).

The western financial support for the PA - which went along with moves to help business partnerships and the like - followed the Oslo agreements, the White House lawn handshake, and all that rot - rewards for peace deals. In short, in anything the PA does, a large portion of it is "your tax dollars at work".

Incidentally, we also provide up to $2 billion a year in aid to the Israelis - the largest recipients of U.S. Foreign Aid - and another ~$1 billion to the Egyptians, the second largest. Those payments go back to 1979 and the Camp David Accords. We pay everybody over there to "make peace". Then we wonder why they keep fighting. Well, you can only make peace if you are fighting, and so far anyway we've never stopped the payments when fighting increased. You decide whether we are helping or harming the situation by such policies...

52 Posted on 11/04/2000 05:38:23 PST by JasonC (jasoncawley@msn.com)
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Sorry dummy but you did not pick any holes in the Israeli story of
what went on. All you did was to repost some twaddle.

Recognize some of your friends in this picture?
The Nazi flag is soooo.... cool!

53 Posted on 11/04/2000 15:15:57 PST by dennisw
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The picture is supposed to represent payment being 
made to the children who get hurt while throwing rocks. 

At least this is my interpretation.

54 Posted on 11/04/2000 15:21:30 PST by dennisw
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Arky posted for about the 100th time:
"The battle for favorable public opinion is an essential part of warfare. The centerpiece of it in the present combat between the Mideast tribal enemies is the 45 minute ordeal of the terrified 12 year old Palestinian boy, ended only when he was killed by gunfire, his father gravely wounded and an ambulance attendant attempting to aid them was also shot dead and the ambulance driver wounded on 30 September 2000."

This kid was shot unintentionally and perhaps was killed by Palestinian fire. However, there is no argument who savagely killed two Israeli soldiers who got lost near Rahmallah.

55 Posted on 11/04/2000 15:41:30 PST by dennisw
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"Sorry dummy but you did not pick any holes in the Israeli story of what went on."

Which Israeli story are you referring to? There have been at least three.

1. Crossfire - "explanation" 1st 3 days - unknown whether the boy was killed by Israeli or Palestinian gunfire.

2. 3rd day - Crossfire "explanation" dumped after investigation supervised by high ranking Israeli officers. Admitted Israeli gunfire killed the boy.

3. A month later - Palestinian/France2TV Palestinian camerman propaganda plot to shoot boy to death while filming the 45 minute ordeal and claim the video taped killing was done by IDF.

56 Posted on 11/04/2000 18:14:56 PST by Arky
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#3 dummy.

Hit it with yer best shot.

57 Posted on 11/04/2000 19:40:01 PST by dennisw
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"#3 Dummy"

Todate, Israel has offered three "explanations" starting with the "crossfire" story which was withdrawn three days later after an investigation supervised by high ranking Israeli military officials determined that it was untenable and that the boy had indeed been killed by IDF gunfire.

Then, a month later, a bizarre allegation surfaced in an Israeli news article that the Palestinian born France2TV camerman and Palestinian gunmen hatched a propaganda plot to shoot the boy to death while filming it and then blame it on the IDF, the truth being uncovered by a "re-enactment" and careful study of the bullet holes in the wall against which the boy and his father were cowering throughout their forty-five minutes of terror during which the father was gravely wounded by multiple gunshots, an ambulance attendant attempting to reach them to render aid was shot dead and the ambulance driver wounded.

Pro Israel propagandists immediately sprang into action here in FreeRepublic with a barrage of postings attempting to bolster that Israeli news story by including pictures they claimed to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was killed by Palestinian gunfire.

The pictures have been on the internet and here in FreeRepublic from the outset, making it self evident that the pro Israel propagandists themselves did not consider them to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was killed by Palestinian gunfire UNTIL the Israeli news source story surfaced over a month after the killing of the boy.

It's also self evident that the Israeli news source story is in conflict with the initial investigation a month earlier supervised by the high ranking military officials that ruled out the original "crossfire" story and determined that the boy was killed by Israeli bullets. Yet, that initial investigation was on-scene, reportedly thorough and included photographs of the bullet holes in the wall that were clearly not then considered by anyone to be incontestable and readily obvious evidence that the boy was shot to death by Palestinian gunfire.

Has that Israeli news source story been officially confirmed by Israel? The second "explanation", that the boy was killed by Israeli bullets, was confirmed by Israeli army chief of operations, Giora Eiland on 3 October 2000 AFTER an investigation he and Maj. Gen. Yom-tov Samia, head of military forces in the southern region that includes Gaza supervised. Eiland acknowledged the importance and "gravity" of the situation and both he and Gen. Samia were obviously aware of the immense importance of proving that the boy was not killed by Israeli bullets if possible. Instead, they had to drop the initial crossfire "explanation" as obviously untenable and admit that the shooting death was by Israeli gunfire.

Israel has been acutely aware from the outset that the shooting death of that terrified boy on 30 September 2000 was the worst public relations disaster for Jews in recorded history and that it brought the 53 year "special case" status of Israel to an abrupt end. If Israel can provide the world with clear and convincing evidence that the 31 October 2000 Israeli news source story is true, why hasn't it publicly presented that evidence to the world press with great fanfare?

Has anyone even seen that story in any other Israeli press source todate, much less in any of the world press?

The pro Israeli propagandist here in FreeRepublic have ballyhood that one press report as "evidence" that the video taped killing of the boy was a pre-conceived plot by Palestinians and the France2TV camerman to murder the boy on camera and blame it on the IDF. Proving it is clearly going to require clear and convincing evidence. Where is it?

If the rather large number of pro Israeli propagandists here in FreeRepublic really sincerely believe that story themselves, why haven't they been flooding the world press with copies of the story?

Instead, some of them seem to think they can somehow manage to reverse Israel's worldwide public relations disaster with childish efforts to demonize those in FreeRepublic who dare to disagree with them.

58 Posted on 11/04/2000 21:31:53 PST by Arky
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You still have not picked apart the Israeli clarification of what happened. Because you cannot. All you do is screech and propagandize in your bumbling way.

All you do is repost the same drivel and people are noticing this. I feel sorry for you.

59 Posted on 11/04/2000 21:41:15 PST by dennisw
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Unless an Israeli soldier left the fortified compound and made his way to a position within an arc which allowed direct firing upon the father and the son who were un-hit for forty-five minutes behind the barrel, the Israelis didn't shoot that boy and his father. The sequence just before the rounds hit them shows they were as well behind the barrel as during the previous forty-five minutes! Someone had to reach a point beyond the 0 to 30 degree arc of the outpost, so the angle had to be 30 degrees to 180 degrees ... the Israelis had a 30 arc sweep for fire on the barrel position, but the hits had to have been from greater than 30 degrees to the barrel to reach the hidden figures.

Who fired from a position greater than 30 arc of the Israeli IDF position in the fortifications?

60 Posted on 11/04/2000 22:32:49 PST by MHGinTN
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Thank you for your analysis! I'm posting it now to the research thread also!

61 Posted on 11/04/2000 22:56:49 PST by Alamo-Girl
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Yes, I had heard (for some years) about the enormous generosity of the US and some other countries in sending money, usually via the UN, to the PLO. BUT ... within the last year or so there were a couple of news items about that money never quite trickling down to PLO public services. The general impression that the money was sticking to fingers high up in the PLO and being funneled to Swiss bank accounts and the like.

With virtually no economy in the PLO areas, offering $300 in one payment is not much different from winning the lottery. It's a tremendous inducement. It would be indecent for me to suggest that Arab parents are indifferent to their children, but they probably calculate the odds and figure this is better than starvation.

But, my original question was, when the parents are paid, what are they paid with .... some IOU or PLO funny money or something resembling real money, and which nationality?

62 Posted on 11/05/2000 05:14:54 PST by DonQ
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Perhaps Arky will get his brain in gear long enough to answer you.

63 Posted on 11/05/2000 05:45:16 PST by dennisw
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You'd have to ask someone who receives or makes the payments, obviously. I don't know the mechanics of it.

On the strength of one-off payments as inducements, though, to me it suggests quite different possibilities. We are paying out perhaps $3.5 billion a year, net, to countries in the region. The U.S. Treasury can borrow money at around 6% interest. There are only 2 million in the west bank and gaza, and another 1.6 million Arabs in Israel proper. Work it out, and we could easily provide a one-off payment of $16,000 for every man, woman, and child involved, for the same expense to us - if in return all claims of past damage, outrage, future demands etc - would actually cease. The problem is that they wouldn't.

As what social scientists call "the law of net harm" explains, paying people who behave badly, not to behave so badly, does not work. It attracts more people to bad behavior. And that is true whether it is intended, cynical, or not. There is precious little difference between what the PA is doing in this respect (where even honest "insurance" as a motive still brings with it "moral hazard"), towards its citizens, and what we are doing toward the PA as a whole.

In other words, I will get all hot and bothered about the PAs practices, when we've reformed our own. The beam is in our eye.

64 Posted on 11/05/2000 11:52:30 PST by JasonC (jasoncawley@msn.com)
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"Unless an Israeli soldier left the fortified compound and made his way to a position within an arc which allowed direct firing upon the father and the son who were un-hit for forty-five minutes behind the barrel, the Israelis didn't shoot that boy and his father. The sequence just before the rounds hit them shows they were as well behind the barrel as during the previous forty-five minutes! Someone had to reach a point beyond the 0 to 30 degree arc of the outpost, so the angle had to be 30 degrees to 180 degrees ... the Israelis had a 30 arc sweep for fire on the barrel position, but the hits had to have been from greater than 30 degrees to the barrel to reach the hidden figures. Who fired from a position greater than 30 arc of the Israeli IDF position in the fortifications?"

The first and most obvious question is why the high level Israeli investigation from 30 September to 3 October did not come to the same conclusion you did, as evidenced by the official announcement after the completion of that investigation that the boy was killed by Israeli bullets and the dumping of the original crossfire "explanation"?

It's important to keep in mind that lethal bullets were not recovered. The high level decision to drop the initial crossfire claim and admit that the boy was killed by Israeli bullets was clearly based on other evidence.

Wouldn't the most logical and compelling reason be that the IDF soldier who fired the final lethal burst of gunfire admitted it?

If so, wouldn't it be logical for the investigators to then retrieve the bullets from the wall to determine their origin and thereby make sure the IDF soldier was not mistakenly admitting he did it?

65 Posted on 11/05/2000 12:20:52 PST by Arky
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You're obviously better informed than the average Freeper and I really appreciate your explanation.

Your mention of paying $16G to every Arab man, woman, and child in Israeli territory is intriguing and reminds me very much of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane's proposal to pay off Arabs (Palestinians) simply to leave Israel, give up their claims to Israeli property, and start life somewhere else with the payoff. At the time (about 15 years ago) he said he would rather pay the money to an Arab to leave in peace than have to pay the same money later to a Jew to kill that Arab. I think maybe now a LOT of Israelis wish that they had given that suggestion more consideration.

One of the very significant issues on the so-called Peace Process is the notion of ALL Palestinian Arabs "returning" to this territory. The PLO Covenant is so worded that it counts as Palestinians just about any Arab whose great-great-great-great (etc) grandfather passed thru the area, notwithstanding that the present day descendant is a fullfledged (and prosperous) citizen of some other country. This definition could attract virtually every poor Arab around the world. Certainly enough to wipe out the Jewish population ... not even by war, just by overcrowding. Funny thing, when the Jews had the same policy - and their ethnic brethren were definitely being oppressed in a lot of countries and needed refuge -- the UN called it racism. No such complaint about the PLO side of the plan, though.

66 Posted on 11/05/2000 12:59:44 PST by DonQ
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Good questions. If the PLO was really interested in truth they would have allowed a neutral autopsy. Instead we have propagandists_in_a_frenzy like Arky who never gives me direct answers.

I twice asked Arky to pick apart the recent Israeli analysis but he refuses to do so. Instead he posts the same swill over and over.

Anyways this is my current favorite picture of the Palestinian gunslingers.

67 Posted on 11/05/2000 13:07:17 PST by dennisw
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It used to be, unless I am dreaming, that every school child would recognize what was meant by the saying "once you pay the Dane-geld, you will never be rid of the Dane". Now, just having an inkling of the same moral, even without knowing the old history the saying comes from, passes for erudition. Common sense isn't so common anymore, I guess...

68 Posted on 11/05/2000 16:27:41 PST by JasonC (jasoncawley@msn.com)
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Or, for those in Rio Linda, look at it this way. We say we are paying the Palestinians all this money every year, in order to ensure peace. In other words, we are supposedly paying them to *not* through rocks at the Israelis. OK.

Then, when they throw rocks at the Israelis, we keep sending the money. Meanwhile, over in Thailand, nobody is throwing any rocks at the Israelis. Off in Tanzania, nobody is throwing any rocks at the Israelis. In Madagascar, nobody is throwing any rocks at the Israelis. Obviously, we don't pay just anybody not to throw rocks at the Israelis.

In fact, the only folks on God's green earth we pay *not* to throw rocks at the Israelis, are people who *do* throw rocks at the Israelis. So obviously, we are really paying them *to* throw rocks at the Israelis.

Our noble intentions declare otherwise. But the Palestinians know better. They see how we act, and don't pay too much attention to what we tell each other in op-eds and leading editorials. And it is clear as day, that we pay people who throw rocks at the Israelis. Period.

So they do. And then we wonder why, and pretend they are the fools of the piece instead of us...

69 Posted on 11/05/2000 16:35:38 PST by JasonC (jasoncawley@msn.com)
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Tribalism Seen As Root Cause Of Turmoil In Israel

Foreign Affairs Opinion (Published) Keywords: JERUSALEM
Posted on 10/14/2000 10:58:55 PDT by Arky

Bloodshed and Fear Fuel Unholy Hatred
By Marjorie Miller, Times Staff Writer

JERUSALEM--As he built a hut for the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, reservist Avihai Vassal told how he had been a captain in the army unit that escorted Yasser Arafat into the Gaza Strip on the Palestinian leader's return from exile six years ago.

"I should have shot him then," Vassal said. "I hope there is going to be a war. You make peace with human beings, not animals."

Down the road in Jerusalem's Old City, Aida Sadawi held her prayer rug in one hand and clenched the other into a fist, which she shook at Israeli soldiers blocking entry to the Al Aqsa mosque for Friday prayers.

"We're not afraid of their rockets or their tanks. We are not afraid to die. This is our land," Sadawi seethed.

This is the raw mood in the Holy Land after two weeks of riots that culminated in the public lynching of two Israeli soldiers and a wave of Israeli missile attacks on Palestinian headquarters in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

As helicopters circle overhead and the two sides hurl rocks at each other on the ground, the veneer of civility is being stripped away.

Now the violence is either Israel's battle for survival or the Palestinians' war of independence.

The language is viciously uncompromising, with political correctness giving way to tribalism.

Scores are kept in blood: the grotesque lynching of two Israeli soldiers in Ramallah versus the heart-wrenching shooting of 12-year-old Mohammed Durra at his father's side in Gaza.

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1 Posted on 10/14/2000 10:58:55 PDT by Arky
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When will the hate stop - this is just another example of organized religion out of control - both sides teach love and tolerance - but organized religion is all about money and control and has nothing really to do with true religion - and then put politicians and big business in the middle of this and you have the truth - they could care less how many people die - the leaders know nothing will happen to them - just a bunch of sheep dying for nothing - they are really just using religion - someday they will have to answer for their betrayal

2 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:06:00 PDT by candyman34
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Tribalism

This fuzzy headed journalist has watched one too many Survivor shows.

3 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:08:08 PDT by truth_eagle
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I heard some idiot (a caller) on FOX News ask "What civilized nation uses machine guns against rock throwing children?".

What civilized nation sends out it's children to throw rocks at soldiers with machine guns?

The Moslem Palistinians do not reason as we do,

4 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:12:14 PDT by Mike Darancette
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Genesis 25:23 Genesis 25 Genesis 25:22-24

The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."

5 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:12:41 PDT by bmwcyle
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No, the root cause is when the U.N. and Britain GAVE AWAY Palestinian lands, homes, farms, mosques, cemetaries and villages.
The Jews got the land, land which wasn't theirs. SOME of them knew it was wrong and knew there would be repercussions sooner or later.
The Palestinians, in 1948, were destitute, without money, power or status....voiceless. No one listened to them or cared about this wrong.
People of the world watched the Jews dancing and celebrating. They did NOT watch the rioting Palestinians, objecting vociferously to the theft of their homes, lands, farms and villages.

Three wars and a 6-year insurrection later, the Jews and Arabs are still at it. Now the Arabs are backed by fabulously wealthy Arab brethern. NOW they have a voice.

Now it's too late. The Jews are entreched into THEIR homes, lands, farms and "settlements," synagogues and cemeteries. The Palestinians won't give up their fight either. Why would they? Why should they? Why should the Jews give up either?
Apparently, both sides are ready, willing and able to fight to the death. And they will.

Is THAT tribalism?
Sounds to me like civil war.

ISRAEL'S FUTURE: EVERYone loses.

6 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:15:39 PDT by Angel923
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"Gather together, O fighters of Karameh, Litani and Beirut, raise your voices aloud: we shall die, we shall die, so that Palestine shall live. Our blood is your atonement, O Jerusalem, and our souls are your defenders, O Palestine. We swear unto the holy martyrs: until victory!" [Fatah, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's faction of the PLO, Al-Ayyam, 29 March 1998] Remember this statement the next time you see Palestinians attacking Jewish positions, and using children as shields."

"The Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice the last boy and the last girl so that the Palestinian flag will be flown over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem." [Yassir Arafat, in a speech given on 6 August 1995 at a party to celebrate the birth of his daughter -- Haaretz, 6 September 1995; The Jerusalem Post, 7 September 1995] Notice that Arafat chose the birthday of his daughter to vow to use boys and girls in battle against the Israelis. Remember that when you see pictures like that of the 12-year-old boy killed a couple weeks ago; he was fighting against the Israelis with the PLO against whom the Israelis were fighting. The PLO use children just as the Viet Cong used them against Americans during the Vietnam War!"

7 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:21:31 PDT by truth_eagle
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"EXAMPLES OF PALESTINIAN HATRED TOWARD THE JEW

"The dead shall not rise until the Palestinians shall kill the Jews. All agreements with Israel are provisional." (a Friday sermon screened on PLO television, July 28 and August 11, 2000). All agreements with Israel are provisional, eh? Now, can you understand how impossible it is to reach an agreement with Arafat? He has kept precious few of the promises made in the first two stages of the Oslo Peace Accord, and Israel has not forced him to keep them.

Notice the first sentence; this Muslim cleric actually equated the resurrection of the dead with the slaughter of 100% of all Jews! This ridiculous statement demonstrates both the religious nature of the struggle in the minds of the Palestinians, and the incredible depth of hatred in their hearts.

"We will turn the territories of the [Palestinian] Autonomy into [the Israelis'] graveyard." [Chief Palestinian negotiator Sa'eb Ariqat, Al-Manar, 8 June 1998]

"Defining the situation with Israel today as peace is a mistake. There is no peace with Israel ..." [Senior advisor to the PLO Executive Committee Jamal Al-Sorani. (Al-Bayader Al-Siasi, 13 June 1998]"

8 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:23:02 PDT by truth_eagle
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Whether it's "organized" or "true" -- it's NOT about religion at all.
People are idiots and assholes. They always have been and they always will be. They WILL find a reason to do what they do. They will use whatever excuse to be idiots and assholes.
This is human nature. The hate will stop when we stop being human.
God made us like Him in two ways. We have immortal souls (unless God decides that some are just too evil for continued existence) and we have free will. He lets us be who we are. That's the deal.
If we choose to be evil or good, it's our goose to be cooked or our soul to be rewarded.
The sad part is dragging the innocents into our wars.

And, yes, someday "they" will have to answer for their betrayal. Leaders DO have extra responsibilities.

9 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:23:41 PDT by Angel923
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BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.
Giving one side higher moral ground is ABSURD. It's foolish, ignorant, self-serving and arrogant.
BOTH sides have killed, tortured, bombed, murdered.
BOTH sides are FULL of blame.

10 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:29:27 PDT by Angel923
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Is THAT tribalism?

It seems like tribalism to me, not that different than other wars where two groups are fighting and killing each other for the same piece of land. They certainly aren't fighting over religion and I doubt either side would care to convert the other to it's way of belief.

11 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:31:32 PDT by FITZ
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This is the raw mood in the Holy Land after two weeks of riots that culminated in the public lynching of two Israeli soldiers...

Notice how the Israeli dead get honorable mention whereas the 100 plus Palestinian dead are not mentioned at all, rather they are vaguely implied as "two weeks of riots"...

12 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:31:33 PDT by Uprise
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"Remember this: God is the #1 Zionist in the world. Listen:

"... I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion." [Psalm 2:6; God foretelling of Jesus' Millennial Reign]

"Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion ..." [Psalm 9:11]

"But [God] chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved." [Psalm 78:68] God loved Zion then, and since He never changes, we can be assured He loves Zion still, as we shall see shortly with the other verses, below.

END OF THE AGE PROPHECIES ABOUT MOUNT ZION

"Zion shall be redeemed with judgment ..." [Isaiah 1:27] This redeeming Judgment is very close.

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place." [Isaiah 28:16-17] This is a Messianic prophecy. At the End of the Age, Jesus Christ Himself will cleanse Mount Zion [Temple Mount] with Judgment and shall put a stop to all lies.

"Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand ..." [Joel 2:1] We are this stage right now.

"The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake." [Joel 3:16] Soon, a roar of war, death and destruction will erupt from the Temple Mount, and you can be assured it is from the Lord God, and you can be equally sure Islam will be swept away in Judgment.

"The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem ..." [Amos 1:2]

"But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions." {Obadiah 17] This Scripture foretells the destruction by War Judgment of the House of Esau, the Palestinians, which is the point the world stands right now. Modern-day descendents of the House of Esau are the Palestinians, who are about to run straight into God's buzzsaw Judgment.

13 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:32:53 PDT by truth_eagle
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It's not about organized religion. The state of Israel is a secular state and doesn't make claims that its killings are in the name of Yahweh. In fact, from the Palestinian perspective as well, even though the rhetoric of killing in the name of Allah is made from time to time, they have a very rudimentary desire for self-determination and a homeland. Maybe your point is that the veil is used from time to time. If so, only as a pretence for inspiration amongst some.

This is no more the "tribal" warfare than which has existed amongst European states for a thousand years. Certainly nothing to look down our noses at and pontificate about.

14 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:51:26 PDT by Lent
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Relatives in Israel report that Arab newspapers are advertising for parents to send their children to throw rocks and fight the Israelis. The reward: $300 per injured child, $2000 per death.

Palestinian (and other Arab) children are taught to hate Israel from the time they are young. They are also taught that dying for "the cause" is the greatest honor.

When Arafat finally deletes from the PLO charter the part about destruction of Israel, then - perhaps - there will be hope for peace on both sides.

However, as Al Gore put it so eloquently some months ago, "A leopard cannot change its 'stripes'."

15 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:53:41 PDT by trek2300
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Well, the "tribalism" is usually just a fight over land, water, etc., when there are too many people, not enough land and nowhere to go....just normal population pressures.
THIS was "man-made" (not meaning to genderize it), started by the U.N. and Britain.
We have footage of the dancing/celebrating (Jews) and rioting (Palestinians). THIS was a clear case of robbing Peter (Palestinians) to pay Paul (Jews).
THIS is judgable.
Now, however, 52 years later, the issue seems to be obscured.
BOTH SIDES are wrong now.
BOTH sides must share the blame for the killing.

16 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:54:23 PDT by Angel923
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Here in America we don't have serious tribal problems because no group of people can claim the land for their own. For this reason the correct moral response when a new group threatens to become dominant in a neighborhood--is to run.

17 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:58:40 PDT by ckilmer
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Well, the "tribalism" is usually just a fight over land, water, etc., when there are too many people, not enough land and nowhere to go....just normal population pressures.

Be aware of anything that uses the word "tribalism". It is used constantly by NWO types that think the U.N. would be a superior form of government.

18 Posted on 10/14/2000 11:58:44 PDT by independentmind
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Looks to me as if BOTH houses are under the, um, "buzzsaw of God."

But the GRIM REAPER appreciates your use of the Holy Bible in justifying the deaths of the Palestinians.
It adds fuel to the fire and stirs up anger and hatred.
It sheds no light, heals no wounds.
It just makes the hatemongers....and the GRIM REAPER very happy.

19 Posted on 10/14/2000 12:02:15 PDT by Angel923
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You make mention of GOD. Is the God you refer to the same one in the Old Testament or some New Age Pagan god ?

20 Posted on 10/14/2000 12:02:58 PDT by truth_eagle
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You are correct.
You ought to copy this to "Arky," the originator of this thread.

21 Posted on 10/14/2000 12:03:12 PDT by Angel923
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Haha, you are off-topic, t_e.
This is about "tribalism" as the root of the war....not word parsing for you to change the subject.
Nice try, though.

22 Posted on 10/14/2000 12:05:39 PDT by Angel923
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Wrong, it's not off topic at all, it is the topic! If God has given the Jews the land of Israel, then the argument being made that this dispute is petty "tribalism" is absurd.

23 Posted on 10/14/2000 12:13:22 PDT by truth_eagle
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